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Author Topic: [Ideas] and [Experiments]  (Read 11536 times)

Lukur

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #15 on: 2010-01-25, 05:44:14 »

Can't be sure if I would go with WoD on this. The engine is popular enough for White-Wolf to get cranky about it (copyright woahs). Redemption and Bloodlines are already licensed for all the White-Wolf content you would ever want to impliment.

Crytek has never purchased a license for White-Wolf content. So they wont have anyone's back if White-Wolf wants to send lawyers to gang rape anyone that pulls direct WoD content into the CryEngine. White-Wolf has been known to be a hardcore "protect my IP at all costs" corporation. They are the Disney of vampires. Quite frankly, I'm rather put off by White-Wolf's obsessive control policies.

Sure, but both Redemption and Bloodlines have their limitations and are dated.

WW is bit hardcore about it ip (underworld is prime example), but are you sure that they shut down non-commercial projects too (do you have some example of ww shutting down such project) ? Also, it seems that they don't care much about oWoD - they have only one product from oWoD still running - vampire: the eternal struggle.
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #16 on: 2010-01-25, 11:13:23 »

I asked them, "Is it all right to create a non-commercial academic game using the owod rules? And they answered "We don't offer that license at this time."

So yes. I asked that personally. They don't support it.
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Lukur

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #17 on: 2010-01-26, 16:37:38 »

I asked them, "Is it all right to create a non-commercial academic game using the owod rules? And they answered "We don't offer that license at this time."

So yes. I asked that personally. They don't support it.

Thats maybe cause they don't support owod, and it would not help them profiting from their nwod published books and stuff.

Have you tried asking for nWoD too ? If you are of course interested in it (and the place where it takes place would have surprisingly high number of bloodlines, in fact around 10 - and presence of Mekhet, Daeva would be very thin ... also covenants would be strangely similar to oWoD ones - but it would be nWoD ;) )
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #18 on: 2010-01-26, 22:50:49 »

On one hand, I could take the risk and go for it. On the other hand, I'll have a lot more freedom if I go for a whole new original concept. I've been conflicted to the point of wondering if vampires will even be my theme when I have learned enough about CryEngine to start building a serious mod.
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EtaYorius

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #19 on: 2010-01-27, 06:25:33 »

You got anything else in mind for a mod in Crysis?
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #20 on: 2010-01-27, 16:07:48 »

Haven't you ever wanted to do something with your stories? Why recreate something that isn't yours when you can create something that is yours?

Sure, it'll be fun to do conversion mods like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, World of Darkness, and stuff like that. Despite how much quality work we put into them, we'd never be able to call them our own because they are owned by others. I don't really consider myself an average joe writer. Personally, I know I can write original stuff. I just need to motivate myself to carry through. And I know you have stuff sitting around that you would want to finish too.

Why not take this opportunity to use the engine we've been waiting for to create something that we want to create? Something we've been waiting to create for a long time that doesn't belong to anyone else, but us. I know I want a horror theme, but I also have epic story ideas too. There's so much I want to do, but am so far off from being able to do it.
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EtaYorius

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #21 on: 2010-01-27, 19:42:14 »

Yeah i totally know what you mean, right now im Writing 2 books, one fantasy and one gothic/horror, i honestly preffer something fresh like you mentioned, but it dosent have to be a mod about a "World of Darkness", but it can still be a fresh idea about vampires or any other "Dark Creatures".

I was planning to mod Oblivion with my fantasy story, but i lack too much knowledge about the engine, so i decided i rather learn Embrace... i may just do my fantasy story inside Redemption.

Anyway, as long as we dont give up in any of our ideas/dreams i think this community will live on... i could go on and keep updating Redemption with NPCs/Props but if you ever decide to leave Redemption, well... it will just pretty much die.

Its you and this site who keeps Redemption alive, not planetvampire or any other site.
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Lukur

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #22 on: 2010-01-28, 07:54:10 »

Haven't you ever wanted to do something with your stories? Why recreate something that isn't yours when you can create something that is yours?

Sure, it'll be fun to do conversion mods like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, World of Darkness, and stuff like that. Despite how much quality work we put into them, we'd never be able to call them our own because they are owned by others. I don't really consider myself an average joe writer. Personally, I know I can write original stuff. I just need to motivate myself to carry through. And I know you have stuff sitting around that you would want to finish too.

Why not take this opportunity to use the engine we've been waiting for to create something that we want to create? Something we've been waiting to create for a long time that doesn't belong to anyone else, but us. I know I want a horror theme, but I also have epic story ideas too. There's so much I want to do, but am so far off from being able to do it.

For one, vampiric mythos are not something owned by others. It have many variations, told to us by variety of nations. So neither White Wolf nor anyone else have right to say 'it's our own', and you could claim truthfully it's yours. Creating alternate universe that is similar to our own, but more 'dark and gloomy' is not really that unique (RE, SH, WoD are not that unique - are just neat set of ideas, borrowed from various sources), it's just a canvas where your story could be told. It's a story that is unique, universe is just a scene where acts take place.

Whats more, there are no one World of Darkness - there are multiple WoDs in fact, as all it's 'users' have their own unique vision of 'World of Darkness' and how it's looks like. Take a look at the modding community, each modder have his unique vision how it should play or look like. Take a look at the bloodlines compared to redemption, despite sharing the same world they are vastly different and creators take non similar approach in gameplay and portraying the world around.

So it's totally fair to create horror story in universe similar to our own that have vampires in and is yours.

And btw, it is possible to create something similar to euphoria Dynamic Motion Synthesis, to make good melee combat in the game ?
« Last Edit: 2010-01-28, 07:59:08 by Lukur »
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #23 on: 2010-01-28, 12:38:11 »

I think you misunderstood what I mean by ownership. Bloodlines and Redemption are under the same license by the same publisher (Activision). Bloodlines is not unique because it follows along with the World of Darkness canon. Redemption used pnp rules from World of Darkness, but is not canon. Both required licenses from White-Wolf. Both belong to White-Wolf.

Ofcourse White-Wolf doesn't own vampires, but they do own their own popular brand of vampires. World of Darkness is their trademark product and they own it. Anyone who makes a story featuring any content contained within White-Wolf's product (pnp rules, characters, plot, ect), does not belong to us and must be licensed. Hence what I've been talking about. You can make a unique story all you want, but if there's a Brujah in it, you'll have to get licensed permission because you're making something that doesn't solely belong to you.
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Lukur

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #24 on: 2010-01-28, 12:53:17 »

I think you misunderstood what I mean by ownership. Bloodlines and Redemption are under the same license by the same publisher (Activision). Bloodlines is not unique because it follows along with the World of Darkness canon. Redemption used pnp rules from World of Darkness, but is not canon. Both required licenses from White-Wolf. Both belong to White-Wolf.

Ofcourse White-Wolf doesn't own vampires, but they do own their own popular brand of vampires. World of Darkness is their trademark product and they own it. Anyone who makes a story featuring any content contained within White-Wolf's product (pnp rules, characters, plot, ect), does not belong to us and must be licensed. Hence what I've been talking about. You can make a unique story all you want, but if there's a Brujah in it, you'll have to get licensed permission because you're making something that doesn't solely belong to you.
Sure, i understand the meaning of word 'ownership', and i keep my opinion that it's perfectly fine to create horror theme game in twisted real world with vampires as both protagonists and antagonists. I know that license of both belong to ww, and crytek does not have the license.

Game with similar mood, different characters, rules and plot does not belong to WW. Heck, even many WW names are generic. Brujah is twisted spanish word Bruja. So using former is not within rights, but using latter is perfectly fine. Nosferatu, Gangrel comes from various vampiric mythos or movie. True, there are few things you have to avoid, but nothing severe, mostly names really ...
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #25 on: 2010-01-28, 13:58:47 »

It's funny that you would mention names. I was thinking about making a topic about what can copyright laws truly protect. I guess when I said Brujah, I meant the whole ww literary work behind the Brujah not just the name itself.

I looked up the pdf file on copyright at the gov site and here is what copyright CANNOT protect:

What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for
federal copyright protection. These include among others:
? Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of
expression (for example, choreographic works that have
not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches
or performances that have not been written or recorded)
? Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols
or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation,
lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients
or contents

? Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts,
principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a
description, explanation, or illustration
? Works consisting entirely of information that is common
property and containing no original authorship (for
example: standard calendars, height and weight charts,
tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from
public documents or other common sources)

Source link:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf

With that said, you could actually take Brujah - minus the ww literary work on their version of Brujah. You could possibly take the following concepts of vampires:

-comprised of 13 major clans (concept)
-paralyzed by an oak stake through the heart (system)
-can be given Final Death by aggravated damage (system)
-must battle against their inner monstrosity or become demonically possessed (concept)
-have 7 hit points (system)
-burns in sunlight (common "facts")
-can create other vampires by first draining a mortal's blood to the point of death then feeding the mortal vampire blood. (procedure)
-vampires are "managed" by a vampire prince within each major city (concept)
-there are two major sects that battle out within a major city for control over that city (concept)
-vampires follow a creed called The Masquerade (concept)
-all vampires originate from Caine (concept)
-vampires are facing the end of days (concept)

I think that by themselves, they could be taken without copyright protection. But what about combining them together? Does the combination of these ideas, concepts, and systems make for a literary work? Therefore, must be licensed to use? Or can a whole new plot and world of darkness feel be created with all of the above concepts that white-wolf cannot make claim to?

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Lukur

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #26 on: 2010-01-28, 14:38:12 »

It's funny that you would mention names. I was thinking about making a topic about what can copyright laws truly protect. I guess when I said Brujah, I meant the whole ww literary work behind the Brujah not just the name itself.

I looked up the pdf file on copyright at the gov site and here is what copyright CANNOT protect:

What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for
federal copyright protection. These include among others:
? Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of
expression (for example, choreographic works that have
not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches
or performances that have not been written or recorded)
? Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols
or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation,
lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients
or contents

? Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts,
principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a
description, explanation, or illustration
? Works consisting entirely of information that is common
property and containing no original authorship (for
example: standard calendars, height and weight charts,
tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from
public documents or other common sources)

Source link:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf

With that said, you could actually take Brujah - minus the ww literary work on their version of Brujah. You could possibly take the following concepts of vampires:

-comprised of 13 major clans (concept)
-paralyzed by an oak stake through the heart (system)
-can be given Final Death by aggravated damage (system)
-must battle against their inner monstrosity or become demonically possessed (concept)
-have 7 hit points (system)
-burns in sunlight (common "facts")
-can create other vampires by first draining a mortal's blood to the point of death then feeding the mortal vampire blood. (procedure)
-vampires are "managed" by a vampire prince within each major city (concept)
-there are two major sects that battle out within a major city for control over that city (concept)
-vampires follow a creed called The Masquerade (concept)
-all vampires originate from Caine (concept)
-vampires are facing the end of days (concept)

I think that by themselves, they could be taken without copyright protection. But what about combining them together? Does the combination of these ideas, concepts, and systems make for a literary work? Therefore, must be licensed to use? Or can a whole new plot and world of darkness feel be created with all of the above concepts that white-wolf cannot make claim to?


Underworld combined all those concepts and was directly ripped off short story in WoD universe, and if i remember right ww sued them and lost. And that was most 'close to the WoD' commercial movie. Why i mentioned names ? Probably that was not names but trademarks, i'm unsure as i don't know law in your country.

Possibly WW just reject to give license due to some contract and it's their policy to avoid giving license ?

I bet various vampiric mythos like vampiric powers are considered "common property", so discipline usage is fine.
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #27 on: 2010-01-28, 16:04:11 »

This was the case white-wolf made against Underworld:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/dl/whitewolfcomplaint.pdf

Starting on page 10. A lot of their points were crap. Trying to say they have proprietary ownship of silver bullets effecting werewolves and shit like that. This is why I think white-wolf is the disneyland of vampires and one of the reasons I may not even want to go with vampires as a theme. Anyone that does will have to deal with white-wolf's doucheness.  If you look at the points they try to make, white-wolf sounds like they are claiming the entire vampire genre. Shit, "Vampires with great speed!" They mind as well sue Twilight. They didn't have much till they started talked about plot specifics involving Nancy Collin's Love of Monsters.

According to this:

http://www.avvo.com/case/view/collins-and-white-wolf-v--sony-pictures-11181

The settlement was confidential.
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Lukur

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #28 on: 2010-01-28, 19:29:47 »

This was the case white-wolf made against Underworld:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/dl/whitewolfcomplaint.pdf

Starting on page 10. A lot of their points were crap. Trying to say they have proprietary ownship of silver bullets effecting werewolves and shit like that. This is why I think white-wolf is the disneyland of vampires and one of the reasons I may not even want to go with vampires as a theme. Anyone that does will have to deal with white-wolf's doucheness.  If you look at the points they try to make, white-wolf sounds like they are claiming the entire vampire genre. Shit, "Vampires with great speed!" They mind as well sue Twilight. They didn't have much till they started talked about plot specifics involving Nancy Collin's Love of Monsters.

According to this:

http://www.avvo.com/case/view/collins-and-white-wolf-v--sony-pictures-11181

The settlement was confidential.

Nice to know. It was obvious rip off anyway. They indeed have nothing until they started to talk about actual plot. Still, i see vampire mythos as a good genre, and WW does not have it's ownership.
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Javokis

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Re: [Ideas] and [Experiments]
« Reply #29 on: 2010-03-11, 20:31:11 »

I have ideas for what I would like to do for the CryEngine 2. I still have a ways to go before I can make any serious mods, but the ideas can be put out on the table here as they come up.

Things I'd like to do but can't... yet:

*Make first person weapon models with custom animations
*New Interface to select and cast spells (Interface development for CryEngine 2 requires Flash CS - so this is a real downer)

Things that are possible to do:

*Make some new maps and locations (Using SoftImage Mod Tool for props, buildings, ect)
*Cutscenes, dialog, and plot (I'm pretty comfortable with the Sandbox sequencer, Flowgraphs, and Dialog Editor)

So there's something. Ideas and motivations welcomed.
« Last Edit: 2010-03-16, 01:31:29 by Javokis »
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