Question

[Javokis]

Yeah it's the core book rules. The subject that is being modified is loosing strength but gaining soak. At least that's what I understood from several options these disciplines allow.

[ORI]

That is partly correct but according to the corebook the user can determine if they want to expend healthpoint or a point of strength, I think a healthpoint is better idea at most time

[Javokis]

I was under the impression that is a permanent loss, but I guess it would make more sense if it were damage. The core book isn't really that specific.

[ORI]

I think its something like Aggraveted Damage where the player suffers damage that takes very long time to heal. the changes are changes to muscle tissues and organs so it makes sense in that way that the effect is long lasting, I just think a player should have a choice if he loses  Health or Strength

[Javokis]

I have an idea. How bout I create some 'fleshy bits' items that the caster keeps in his/her inventory as 'ingredients' for Vicissitude use? Of course any usage of Fleshcraft or Bonecraft should always do some form of damage. The process of melding flesh and bone is always painful.

[edit]

Also, why just health and strength? Why doesn't it effect stamina and dexterity as well. There really isn't much of system here to go on other than ST's discretion.

[ORI]

Stamina doesnt make much sense, since its the ability to endure and the flesh modification allows a person to endure more(increase in soak), Dexterity has very little to do with unless maybe you impaire the arms somehow(which wont have any effect on soak AFAIK )

Health makes sense because the vampire's body needs to get used to the change until he recovers.
Strength makes sense because the muscle structure is altered meaning temporary weakness and strain?

For mechanics either seperate it to two different powers or have successful use of the discipline generate 2 types of fleshy objects/scrolls in the users inventory(one that reduces str and one that reduces health) the user then can give it to the subject who makes up the choice of which scroll to cast and the discipline activated alters his character sheet accordingly?

[Javokis]

Uhm... definitely no. I was thinking the flesh items would come from 3rd party 'victims' that you can use as ingredients. You just keep them in the inventory when you use your powers and they will be 'spent' for what ever purposes you are attempting to do. BTW: The subject does NOT get the choice, the caster gets to choose what stat is sacrificed. I was not thinking about 'scrolls' of any kind.

Other notes:

The soak is not coming from stamina. That wasn't stated, but is open to the ST, granted the book never said anything about raising stamina as the source of soak. Stamina isn't just for soaking, it's also a physical endurance stat. If you're altering the body tissue to enhance the limbs in some way, I totally see this affecting stamina - especially if the subject is mortal. For dexterity, the player can loose balance if they are doing alterations to their legs. This can offset their balance in equilibrium till they adjust to the change (spend exp to regain dexterity). This can also affect dexterity if they are altering the fingers on the hand or the whole hand as well especially if the alteration is to enhance the strength of the hands. Thus end up sacrificing dexterity for strength, especially when the subject needs to do precise finger tasks (picking a lock or trying to use a bow and arrow). So overall, this power can be used to do more than just raise "soak".

The amount of things you can do with this power leaves the core book much to be desired with its lack of explanation. You really have to think outside of the core book, man, because the core book really is not the end all of explanations. Actually quite the contrary. Especially when the book describes Vicissitude.

[ORI]

I was just theorising using logic, since like you say, the book doesnt declare anything explicitly.
I wasnt thinking of scrolls either, I was thinking more of  objects(even flesh) like you say to use as a mini interface to the discipline choice.

Im  against the ingridiant method simply because the power allows you to craft the flesh of other without need for ingridiants of any kind.

 however I like the idea of using lumps of flesh you find and shaping them to somethng else or fusing them to someone to augment their soak(the more body mass you have the more people need to hurt you to penetrate it or bring you down) and I just realized that is the truth behind the increase in soak:

Also I think I was wrong : strength decrease is because the extra body mass is heavy..(imagin you just got more fat and in addition to doing other stuff you need to be able to lift yourself)

I remember reading the choice is the subject's not the caster but I could be wrong.

[Javokis]

How can the subject have a choice when the caster is doing all of the body work? Last I checked, there is very little a subject can do to resist this power. Like if the subject's ribs are being caved in, I highly doubt they have a choice of what effect that will have on them. The caster does as the caster can choose whether those ribs will puncture a given organ. The caster can even choose which rib bone punctures what.

That was exactly what I'm thinking on the lumps of flesh. The "ingredients" can be used to bypass a sacrificed stat, instead just sacrifice a given victim instead. You also need flesh if you are to form specific object  like to make fleshcrafted furniture or formulate a Szlachta or WarGhoul as "flesh ingredients" are actually required plus a subject. Especially if want to enhance them. You most certainly will need a lot of lumps of flesh to create a Vohzd and I'm sure you can't just do that by casting fleshcraft/bonecraft on a single subject unless that subject was huge to begin with.

[ORI]

True but as far as I could tell that specific application of the power(adding soak) was not ment to be used offensively. Ribs is Bonecraft which is not directly related to Fleshcraft(needs level 3)
Warghoul is a combination of two humaniods, Vohzd is more. Szlachta could be made from one human or a large animal AFAIK.

Preservation of matter yes but I always thought of Viccistude like Cancer on steroids, it can make tissue cells grow at an accelerated rate, same with bone, maybe the Tzimisce Clanbook offer more insight about this?(I have never read it).

[Javokis]

Of course the rib stuff can only be done by Bonecraft, I was mainly giving an example. They are pretty much the same principle, consisting of the manipulation of the body. Whether the purpose is offensive or defensive, the subject has little say in both. I mean if you can't resist an offensive use, why would defensive uses be any different. A Tzimisce can do whole kinds of modifications on a subject whether those modifications are good or bad or whether the subject actually wants any of it.

This is most likely why the Tzimisce have such a God Complex.