VtM - Redemption: Source

[Javokis]

That's incorrect. Crysis runs on XP, which I use and It works great. I said people ran this game on an ATI x700. The x700 doesn't even run Bioshock, but testers have ran Crysis with it. The game is very modular and I think the developers knew they would take a massive loss if they went with DX10 and Vista ONLY.

I NEVER said it wouldnt work on XP did i? What i said was that to get the best out of the Crysis engine it needs Direct X10 which is only available if you have Vista...which is EXACTLY what Crytek have said about their engine.

Due to the fact that Source/Unreal Engine 3 have been out there for a few years now they have a lot of documentation about modding for them (especially Source...not so much UE3 until UTIII comes out, but look at all the user created stuff that came out for UT2k4). Crysis isnt even out and the engine is brand new which therefore will have teething problems because unless you work for Crytek youre not going to know what it can and cant do. There will be no documentation with tried and tested results for modding with it unlike Source and to a latter extent, UE3.

Unless you want to be bogged down for ages learning what can and cant be done with the Crysis engine (time which could be used to bang out content using another engine) then that engine isnt the one to go with in my opinion.

I still have to ask what is your point? I also have to ask what ORI asked; How do you know? I highly doudt people will decide not to play Crysis because they can't run it on MAX. Not like I really care at this point because the game looks beautiful on DX9 with XP on HIGH. I can't possibly imagine how much better it would look on DX10. BTW: Are you on the Cysis MP Beta testing team? I AM. Non-profit volunteer of course.

Oh and the documentation for Redemption was rather limited, but we still managed as I'm sure many will on Crysis.

[Old Fecker]

BTW: Are you on the Cysis MP Beta testing team? I AM.

Ooh, big fucking wow. What do you want, a medal for that? I was on the Halo 3 Beta test and the Call of Duty 4 Beta test but i dont go around bragging about it.

My point is why go with something brand new that you have to shell out for when it comes out (especially if you have absolutely zero intentions of buying the game - its just another fps after all...i dont see anything that screams "buy me" really. Its  not like its an innovative take on the genre unlike something like Bioshock for instance) and which no one has done any mods for when there's going to be a hell of a lot more people who already own Half Life 2 and there's a lot of helpful documentation/people out there who have already modded the game?


But stupid bastard me! I shouldnt have my own opinons on something should i?


EDIT

Oh and the documentation for Redemption was rather limited, but we still managed as I'm sure many will on Crysis.

Look how long it took to actually do something interesting with that game apart from the obvious things like skinning, modelling and mapping. This mod is a total conversion. A complete re-write from scratch.

As for you imagining how Crysis looks using DX10, do some research on the net about it and try to find some videos of DX9 Crysis and DX10 Crysis. I did see some vids a while ago but i forget where i watched them. There is a big difference, especially in things like lighting which from your previous posts is something you want very badly to look right in a mod like this.

[ORI]

My point is why go with something brand new that you have to shell out for when it comes out (especially if you have absolutely zero intentions of buying the game - its just another fps after all...i dont see anything that screams "buy me" really. Its  not like its an innovative take on the genre unlike something like Bioshock for instance) and which no one has done any mods for when there's going to be a hell of a lot more people who already own Half Life 2 and there's a lot of helpful documentation/people out there who have already modded the game?


But stupid bastard me! I shouldnt have my own opinons on something should i?


EDIT

Oh and the documentation for Redemption was rather limited, but we still managed as I'm sure many will on Crysis.

Look how long it took to actually do something interesting with that game apart from the obvious things like skinning, modelling and mapping. This mod is a total conversion. A complete re-write from scratch.

Actually I was curious about How many people mod Farcry vs Half Life 2 and I was surprised because apperantly people are already developing mods for CryEngine 2 and the game is not past beta yet,
Though I would imagine HL2 modding community is at least as large or larger though because Crysis is a relative newcomer.

I actually thought Farcry was pretty innovative at the time and Crysis seem to take some of its elements a step further, and they are also developing Farcry 2. so I wouldnt go discrediting it like that.

Redemption came out years ago when game companies were just starting to recognize the opertunity of releasing SDK kits for the fans(evidant by the fact that Nihilistic didnt release one with the game, they only released it after) modding games came a long way since then and companies release proper modding tools and info with the game usually nowdays so unless Crytek totally fucks up I wouldnt worry about it..

[Javokis]

Yes. People have been modding the Crysis beta even though it is against the NDA rules.

Ooh, big fucking wow. What do you want, a medal for that? I was on the Halo 3 Beta test and the Call of Duty 4 Beta test but i dont go around bragging about it.

I am more pointing out the fact that I know more about Crysis than you do. Not to mention I didn't go about making elligations about Halo 3 modding or being an antagonistic douchebag towards people who like beta testing it? Crytek has been known to give high support with their sandbox engines. I don't see Crysis as having to be any different. Again, you base your oppinions on statis quo and popularity. I don't care if I end up being the only one modding for Crysis. I don't care if the mod scene is bigger for HL2. I choose what I want because it is MY TASTE. For fuck sake, I'm the only one doing anything major for Redemption despite your constant bashing of how old and obsolete this game is. Go fucking play your Halo 3 then. I don't give a fuck.

This forum is for PC games.

[Bloodywolf]

I know I'm gonne get flamed for this but:


Woah guys cool down, no one has the right to boss others... Unless they work for you and then pay you/you signed up for it.

Its all personal taste.

Both Half life 2 and Crysis will have big modding communities are my prediction. and if You wanne be one of the first modders of crysis, all I can do is cheer to that.

I did notice things get easeyer to learn when you are trying to archieve something.

Like I was like... crap on VB.NeT untill my teacher recommended I tought of osmething and tried to create a program. I did, and I learned a good amout of tricks and rained expeariance using VB. (maybe bad example)

Same with the games. you rise and fall, I imagine it must be fun for Modders to fiddle around with a game engine, discovering the limits and the abilities. Heck even the hidden functions it has that can really suprise you.

And for bloodyhell's sake, people look at yourself. Read the very first post, and read how the tropic progresses. Its like PS3 Versus X360 all over again. I'm not sayying fanboying. but if I ever wanted to play on an X360 and not on a PS3, thats my bloody bisness, end of story.

Az proposed to recreate redemption on Source, stating benefits due updating, ect

Jav came with the end cryengine, saying he HAS effectively played the game, he can run the game decently, and would rather Mod on that due reasons where he saw potention Ingame. he has effectivly played source games, prolly a few source mods, and crysis, which is the very first DirectX10 game.

I presume Javokis meant: You shouldn't comment about things you haven't seen/played/playTESTED yourself.

[Edit]

Before you start flaming whatever I said, I'm compleatly neutral here, and trying to calm you people down a bit. Cause, YES thats how it feels when I read like the very last 1.5 pages of this tropic, like you're shouting to each other. Forums were originally created by old boring college professiors to talk about ever boring math and gravety theories in a civil and calm way. Lets keep it in that direction, only changing the Wiki to gaming/modding.

[Old Fecker]

I'm the only one doing anything major for Redemption despite your constant bashing of how old and obsolete this game is.

Yes, youve done some good stuff with the game, very well done to you. Trouble is you come across as having a bit of a god complex about it as if you should be somehow revered for modding a game....your above post points that out.

Anyway, i made my point about the specific engine but you dont seem to be able to accept that anyone's views apart from your own could be correct. My point stands that Source would be the better engine due to the amount of modding already done with it and the fact that more people already own HL2 as opposed to a game that hasnt even got past beta status yet.

And when did i exactly say anything like console gaming is above pc gaming as youve tried to insinuate? You were blowing your trumpet about being on the Crysis beta and i was just pointing out that id been on both the Halo 3 & CoD4 betas but didnt rub it in others faces to try and prove i was more knowledgable about something. So, yes i will go and play Halo 3 and Bioshock and i'll be playing CoD4 on the 9th and Project Gotham 4 on the 12th inbetween playing X3 Reunion on the pc.

This is boring me now so im not going to comment on this any further, ive got better things to do. Off to bed now coz im knackered!!  


P.S.

As for not playtesting Crysis, i have had a go at a recent gameshow here in the UK that i attended. My point about Source and its established userbase still stands.

[RuThaN]

He, next onanism over technology.. Why Crysis? Few new graphic abilities, maybe piece of physics. Its laughable so every next fps with hype must be revolution, was Half-life 2 or Doom 3, revolution? I think so no, only a old games style(HL 2 stupid physics puzzles, boring buggy =revolution?, Doom3 =respawn, pdas story and better lights) with better graphics. Best technology in this time is Unreal, no for 2 new efects, but for 12 year of work on tools for every member of development team, great support on Epic side.
   Far Cry i my eyes, was game with one good idea Jungle and with too much big diffuclt, else thinks was same as in another games. 


 And now back to Azreal idea:
 I think, so this idea isnt good. I think so better idea i try gain full source codes of Redemption and upgrade engin, this isnt too much work, here are lots engin upgrade for another id engin games, in most of cause one student projects.
  Making only technology remake with same story content is waste of time. I have only one question its possible edit core of Source egin games, add new rpg system, add things as conversation system, discipline.. rpg games interface/ bind keys for new methods? I have fear that not..

[Javokis]

Anyway, i made my point about the specific engine but you dont seem to be able to accept that anyone's views apart from your own could be correct.

Where the heck is THAT coming from? Seriously. I never intended to start some argument about something so pointless. Just to make things clear here:

I AM NOT ALWAYS CORRECT! I thought that my statements were expressing more of my TASTES than expressing some kind of superiority complex that it seems you're making me out as. All members have their views and their tastes. I never viewed this topic as about RIGHT VERSUS WRONG. I don't recall starting that.

I have nothing against the XBOX360. I wouldn't mind playing Halo 3. There is nothing INCORRECT about that though I am currently in the mood to play/mod PC games and that's all there is to it.

[Azraelthe7th]

RuThaN:  Someone already tried getting the source code for Redemption, but Nihilistic never released it.  To wait for them to release it now is essentially a waste of time for them and, honestly, wouldn't wield that many advantages overall.  Sure, we could finally get the bump mapping they mentioned some time ago, but no soft body, HDR or advanced facial animations without having to re-code everything.

Plus, you seem forget that VtM: Bloodlines used an early version of the engine, so it's very possible to change it into an RPG.  Then there's a little thing called Portal.  And Counterstrike.

I think we should get this back on topic.  If Sengoku and Javokis feel they have to discuss their viewpoints in detail, I think PMs or another thread would be a bit more appropriate overall since I think it'd be best if we concentrate this thread on who's in and what they can do.

Opinions on which engines are (as I figured) likely to diverge here and there, but we can't forget that each one of them has strengths that we would all like to exploit.  I know that the CryEngine 2 is tremendously impressive simply based on tech demos and the already released information.  I mean, name one other engine out there that doesn't use a skybox, or has physics on pretty much everything, including trees.  CryEngine 2 isn't evolutionary, it's revolutionary.

However, I feel that in order to give the widest possible demographic a chance at playing Redemption, Source would be the better option.  The fact that it gets upgraded every now and then is a bonus I feel we shouldn't pass up, not to mention distribution over Steam.  As a bonus to Javokis, who (if I remember correctly) will be learning C++, this will be a good way for him to put his new knowledge to good use.

[RuThaN]

Javokis: I respect yours ideas, because if not i dont will write here. You want my ideas packages in beautiful words, its hypocrisy, i like sicerity. Here in middle Europe isnt something as keeping smiling:) I sometime agree so disgree sometime not, its life.
   In my eyes are engins by graphic side useful from time first engin without sprites(Quake 2).
   Now fotorealism is far. We need minimaly:
primary rays, secondary rays, shadow rays, soft shadows, color bleeding, caustics, subsurface scattering.
   My friend spoke so we can have first half on 10-40 fps on Quad Core.
   Question of graphic engin is for me like difference between HD and normal film, nothing important. Physics evolution is too slow, maybe now we have at least agea software platform na Intel have now Havok.
    Im designer my vision is that important is game mechanism and content(story). I prefer sand box, or "flower box" as i heard in trailer on Assasion Creed. Analogy in film, you can now make good movie as Blair Witch(is good in my eyes, but extremly commerce succes) with camera from supermarket, good movie in greyscale(1/2 20th century), but all Pixar studio efects dont make from stupid story/dubbing(analogy to game mechanism) good movie.
  Everytime someone make better engin, but better story, better design. Cost of deveploment is expensive and expensive and we have less a less good games, now maybe 2 per year. Why because stupid customers(managers), see only next gen graphic..
   Before eleven years i discuss with my frends what is better Duke Nukem 3D or Quake and situation is still repeating..
   
 

[ORI]

I kind of agree with what you are saying RuTHaN: Games have gone a long way since the DOS age and at times  it seems Graphics are Not a good tradeoff for Content, For example Mount&Blade developed(and still evolving) on a so-so graphic engine but the gameplay is really good and rather innovative so people still go for it and even mod it even though the game is still in ongoing development, proof enough that good content is key.

Redemption Graphic engine is good enough for me its just that everytime I want to make something for the engine I get to the point where I have to go through Milkshit3d and thats just frustrating so if someone had Redemption's ST system on another engine I would probably mod it instead.
Source probably dosnt have that issue because it uses XSI for animation and models and even though I still dont know that package at least it wont crash every time I try to port something I made in Blender.

[Azraelthe7th]

ORI, Source actually supports all the engines found on this list, further proving my original point. 

I fully understand what you mean, RuThaN.  Better graphics does not a great game make (take that english language!), but they certainly do help.  I'm sure we could have higher res characters in Redemption with little or no fuss since the engine is still essentially powerful, even now.  After all, it, like the HL engine, are based off the Quake engine.  However, since we don't have access to the source code, we can't really do any more than what Javokis or any of the other Redemption modders can.  Even things that were mentioned as possible by Nihilistic can't be applied because we don't have access to the tools.

As a 3D modeler and eventual game designer, I have to think about all possibilities before mentioning it.  I mean, Redemption would look fantastic using any of the CryEngines, or even the Tech 4 engine, but after looking at what all the engines offer, as well as the possible hardware limitations we could encounter, Source came out as the better option.  I calls them as I sees them but I'm willing to discuss and debate the pros and cons of things until the better idea comes out on top.  I've shown links to answers and gave my opinion on things and that's why I think the engine of choice is accepted.

What we need now is a solid plan, a good team and people who are able and willing to test it.

[ORI]

 I still dont know if Episode Two runs on my computer and so on, meanwhile count me out cause Im starting to study animation next week and I dont know if it will fit my schedual at all.

Im not sure what kind of team you are looking forward to but I reckon it takes a larger team , more than only the people on this site because it seems like tons of work for one programmer and one 3d modeler to accomplish considering they all work on it part time.

[Azraelthe7th]

I think for now, one character modeler, on environment modeler and one programmer could suffice.  At least to get the basics working.  After that, any expansion would be for the best, and likely make things easier for everyone involved.  Unless, of course, we can get a team that's able to communicate ideas easily.

[Javokis]

It wouldn't be the first time I ended up being the only one doing a large amount of coding work. The problem is this is C++, which is a lower level language (lower as in core language). This makes things much more complex than the automation of Java, but C++ is for more powerful. My biggest consern is how often I am going to screw up my computer coding this with my newbie knowledge.

Anyone that says C++ is a lot like Java needs to be knocked upside the fucking head. These languages function completely different. They may LOOK alike, but they are nothing alike. C++ handles classes and packages as well as memory very differently. Error handling is also very different. This is not the kind of language I can go without an instuctor after being tainted by Java. If you approach C++ like you approach Java, you're in big trouble.

I wont be ready to code anything with C++ till Christmas comes around. I may stick with Redemption for quite awhile till I can slowly transition to Source eventhough I still have my eyes on Crysis.